I think we need Indian answers to Indian problems, says Sir Mark Tully

Sir Mark Tully has always believed that there are two kinds of people, those who belong and those who are forever travelling the world, possibly in search for a feeling of belonging.

“I happen to be one who wants to belong. One of the reasons I’ve stayed in India is because I feel like I belong here,” exclaims Tully, who has never felt the urge to travel beyond India, South Asia and Britain, “Maybe it’s very narrow minded of me, but I haven’t!” 

Considering he’s spent most of his life in India, it’s no wonder he calls it home. At the age of 5, he was sent to a boarding school in Darjeeling, away from Kolkata, where his parents lived. “It was believed in those days that the climate of Kolkata was bad for young English children. Also our nanny’s would ensure we had absolutely no interaction with other Indian children,” says Tully, who was later sent to England, where he studied at Cambridge, a male dominated institution in his time. 

I’ve always been inquisitive about his deep rooted love for the railway network in India, his stance on religion and spirituality, his death defying travel tales in Northern India and his standpoint on corruption and governance in India. Tully opens up about everything under the sun. 

You once said, “There's always been a dichotomy in my character - very religious, yet morally really rather bad,” what exactly did you mean by this statement?
In terms of religion, I was a strong believer in christianity. There was a point when I wanted to be a priest, at the same time I have always been attracted by things which traditionally one should not be attracted to. For instance, I’ve always been someone who enjoys drinking beer. Come to think of it, that’s a silly phrase that I used! But yes, that has been a conflict within me. I have been fascinated by religion and it has an important place in my life, but hopefully it has taught me to realise that one should have humility.  

I’ve observed that you’re a firm believer in karma.  When it comes to hinduism, which is the one aspect that appeals to you, more so than others?
There are lots of aspects! But the one that really appeals to me, I’ve mentioned in ‘India’s Unending Journey’. One thing I’ve learned from hinduism is that you’ve to be really open to discussion, you have to accept that there could be uncertainty in certainty. I think one of the problems with people who have religious faith is the fact that they think they understand everything about god! This is precisely why I’ve had difficulties with the traditional christian view. However, I find that christians in churches are much more open minded now. That’s the thing about hinduism, it also accepts that there can be many different ways to god.

Do you believe that religion and spirituality can exist individually or you consider the two to be synonymous with each other?
I don’t see that there is a difference between the two. Most of the spiritual masters are raised on some religious tradition or the other. A great number of them are women, for instance Julian Norwich. If I do believe in any spirituality, it is within the framework of a certain religious tradition.

There is a contrast in your opinion about India, when you compare ‘India The Road Ahead’, and ‘No Full Stops India’. In ‘India The Road Ahead,’ you believe that India has the potential to achieve many of it’s dreams and aspirations, you sound more optimistic on your outlook for India as a progressive nation in the world. Kindly elaborate upon the differing viewpoints in both your books? 
In ‘No Full Stops’, I firmly believe that Indianness needs to survive in India. For instance, the politics in India does not have enough Indianness about them, there is nothing particularly Indian in the Congress party’s beliefs, the BJP’s type of hinduism is not in my view a truly Indian view of hinduism. In ‘India The Road Ahead’, I was saying yes, India has potential and that’s why I had a chapter on the Tata’s to depict what Indian business can do. However, at the same time there are huge problems which have to be faced, particularly the matter of governance has to be improved upon, secondly there is the question of jugaad and thirdly there is the attitude of chalta hain, which I admit has seen India through several crises, but at the end of the day you have to get down to the core issues and solve them!

I think we need Indian answers to Indian problems. For instance, we can’t go turning the country into a place where motor car transport plays the prominent role! We can’t have a society which uses as much energy per capita as America or Britain have done, if we thought of different ways of doing things we would be a lot happier. I think the motor car makes a lot of people very unhappy, you notice one thing, when people get into motor cars they become incredibly aggressive, don’t they?

You’re well known for detesting aeroplanes as a mode of transportation and you seem to prefer the railways as a prime mode of transportation, why is it so? And what’s your opinion about Mumbai’s railway system?
I’m an absolute railway man at heart. Unfortunately, everytime I travel by air, I wish I could have gone by the train or ship or some other form of transportation. Bombay suburban railways? Well, I think they are rather dangerous, I don’t think trains should go along with open doors, as much as I like standing at an open door of a train. I still think it’s a great system, but it obviously needs some more organisation, you know we do want to see railways modernised because we want them to compete. Once when I was sitting in Delhi airport, someone came up and started talking to me, he said he was flying to Amritsar and I said, “You’re a fool! You should go on the shatabdi express.” If we can modernise the railways more and change the whole way they are administered, then one can go from Delhi to Amritsar in 2 and a half hours and no one would fly!

While researching for your books on India, you travelled to the Northern and Eastern parts of the country. Could you elaborate upon some of the troubles you witnessed and the most challenging obstacles you experienced during your journey?
One of the most fascinating problems I saw was in Arunachal Pradesh. It was a struggle trying to see how that state could develop without losing the beauty of its tribal culture, you know, if that’s possible at all! It was essential to understand how the natural resources of the state could be developed without ruining the state. Then another experience that was terribly frightening was nearly being killed in maoist territory, not by the maoists but by a truck carrying loads of iron! Our car was almost at the edge of being pushed over by this lorry.

Do you see education and health care drastically improving in India, in the future?
I think it absolutely has improved! But there won’t be any further improvement, unless there is a change in the standards of governance. I do not believe that this can be done by the private sector, not do I believe that the private sector are doing a good job in either health or education. Except for some rare example, like the Aravind Eye hospital, where they are doing a wonderful job of looking after the poor. But basically the private sector is investing in money by setting up these hospitals, universities and colleges. And many of these institutions are very poorly run!

What is your opinion on slum tourism in India?
I don’t like the idea, because it makes a spectacle of people’s lives and where they live. However, I do think we need to be very well aware of the existence of these slums and the problems that people in this particular strata of society face. I recently read Katharine Boo’s book on Bombay’s slums and what struck out was the presence of corruption at the grassroots level. It’s extremely depressing! There is a scenario in the book during which a woman who is supposed to help slum dwellers take up cases or go to the court turns out to be corrupt. It’s a really sad indictment of what’s going on in this country.

You once said that you were proud of Indians and they gave you the most hope. Are there any particular individuals in the present or the past that have struck a chord with your personal philosophies in life?
I’m a great admirer of Gandhi and Tagore. I’m reading a fascinating book called the ‘Righteous Republic’, it brings out the Indianness of the independence movement, there are many people whom I admire from that particular era in Indian history. I also love cricket, I do admire Tendulkar, but I’m more of a MS Dhoni fan. I think Dhoni has qualities of leadership and coolness, he’s called Captain Cool rightly so! Even though many people may disagree with me, I also greatly admire Maharaja Desai’s integrity. 

Do you find the coming generations more deeply affected by unbridled materialism, capitalism and consumerism?
Yeah, I do take a rather negative view of what I see happening in my own country. Well, I don’t know a lot about America, I wouldn’t say I am an anti capitalist, but consumerism most certainly so. I do think materialism is a flawed philosophy as it exists. But you see the two things, competition and consumerism, in a way go together. And honestly, if you think of consumerism, it is based on greed. Now we all know greed causes sadness, because greed is never satisfied and so, yes, I do think that it is a growing problem in India.

What would you consider to be the most peaceful place in India?
Chail, near Shimla. Once a summer palace for the Maharaja of Patiala, it is in the middle of the reserve forest, it’s a lovely place to go walk, unwind and read. The only problem with it is the monkeys and it’s gotten worse and worse!

You once said, ‘90% of life is destiny and 10% free will,’ please elaborate upon your belief in this sentiment.
You’ve read my book very well! I also mentioned in my book that I think humility is very important. And, of course there is something very odd in my saying this! If I say this, I give the impression of being very humble. I had to fight all the time to try and restrain my arrogance and pride. So I would say, I’ve succeeded in being very humble, but one thing that is important for us to realize is that, so much of what we are, has been given to us or made for us by others.

For instance, consider our genes, if your parents have an academic tendency, then you’re likely to have an academic tendency! If we appreciate and understand that so much of what is given to us is associated with circumstance, by birth, then we will not pat ourselves on the back and say, gosh! I’m wonderful because I have become the managing director of a company, a renowned journalist or actor or whatever one’s profession may be. I will think to myself, I did have to put some effort into it, but I will realise that I have gifts given to me and certain other circumstances which helped me.

What do you think about the state of literature in India?
I’ve never regarded myself as a literary man, my reading has always been more factually oriented. But I think there is a lot of excellent fiction being written about India, both by Indians and outsiders. My only wish is that there were more translations, so that we would be learning much more about what is happening in India than we do today.

So, if not a journalist, then what alternative profession would you choose?
I thought of being a priest, but I realized that would not have been a good idea! But, you know what I think I would like to be? Something to do with nature, something to do with being outside.

Something like an environmental activist?
No, no. I would much rather be a forester or even be a farmer, that would be wonderful. You know, I’ve just returned from Auroville and I go there quite often. I think one of the great things Gandhi said, I think he got this from Tolstoy, it’s very important, to work with your hands and to see things growing. To help things to grow is a beautiful thing. It’s much better than being a journalist.

Knighted, awarded the Padma Shree, the Padma Bhushan and famously known as the BBC’s ‘Voice of India’ for nearly half a century, Sir Mark Tully is one of the only foreigners to have unravelled the mysteries of the world’s biggest democracy. His profound knowledge and remarkable insight on life in India has shed light upon some of the country’s most crucial issues. Tully wishes he knew the solution to corruption in India, he truly believes in encouraging the people to understand the culture of our country, “Once Indians embrace their Indianness, they will understand that corruption is totally contrary to the culture in this country,” quips Tully.