I have never been corrupt, so I don't think that way: Tharoor

This is the transcript of an interview conducted by NDTV 24x7 editor Barkha Dutt with minister of state for external affairs Shashi Tharoor on the Kochi IPL controversy and telecast on Wednesday evening.

Barkha Dutt: Well, controversy has not been new to Mr Shashi Tharoor since he became a minister in this government; in fact, since he joined politics. But many of the earlier controversies seemed marginal, trivial, even flippant compared to the political challenge he is facing right now, where his very integrity has been questioned, with the BJP and the Left saying that Shashi Tharoor should step down.

Joining us today is the man who has dominated our headlines for the past 48 hours, minister of state for external affairs...

Shashi Tharoor: Not willingly.

BD: Not willingly, of course, you are still smiling...

ST: What can you do? Frankly, Barkha, this is so preposterous that I am sort of reeling in shock from what I have been looking at on television in the last 24 hrs in this country and in the press, of course.

The fact is that I have spent a lifetime in international public life without a slightest taint and someone trying to mar my integrity and to see it being done here is to me astonishing.

It's one thing that I thought anybody will ever have an excuse to say anything against me, so I am pretty angry and I can realise that I am at a point where I can't do anything right.

At this point, about me being seriously attacked and in this particular instance what I did as an elected representative of my state of Kerala is that let me try and get an IPL team for my state. I have mentored a group of business people who have their own consortium of which I am not aware and they have come in, they have participated in a transparent bidding process, and have won. And it seems that is too much of an unpardonable act and it seems that is what I am being blamed for.

BD: Okay, let's look at a few things in that statement. Let's look at the central charge. What is the central charge? It is simply that allegedly you are guilty of a quid pro quo where you have used your political influence as a minister in the government to get a team for Kochi in return for which a close associate of yours, Sunanda Pushkar, is being granted Rs70 crore worth of free equity, sweat equity, call it what you will. The charge is that Shashi Tharoor has misused public office, the charge is one of quid pro quo.

BD: Why do you say that? Doesn't politics drive a lot of the IPL?

ST: Perhaps it does, but I didn't even know the amount this team was going to bid. That wasn't a part of my help for them. So whatever they did, they took a chance of putting a number higher or lower than the other bidders. There were five bidders after all and it so happened that their bid was the second highest bid. It could have been the third highest bid and they could have lost.

No minister could have guaranteed that they would have known the numbers of the other bidders and I certainly had no basis of doing that. So I fail to understand how I could have used ministerial office, or anybody could have used ministerial office, to guarantee the outcome. In fact, if the outcome could have been guaranteed, I am fairly sure that more influential and powerful people would have won the bid.

BD: You said in the statement that you issued to the media that whatever your relationship be with any member of the consortium...

BD: The reason I raised it, I want to clarify something. I don't believe that your private life is anybody's business and so this is not about your personal life. The reason that this comes up is because of its association with the public. It has been visible in public circles. It has been visible in political circles. For example, your recent trip to Assam. We have seen the images on our television screens. So what the opposition is saying is that look, this is a public association, this is an equation within political circles, ie your equation with Sunanda Pushkar, and her getting this amount of equity is no longer about her personal life.

ST: I take that, that's precisely the charge they are trying to level. The fact is there is a consortium with people in it; she is among the several people; and some I haven't even met or am aware of and some are a part of this Rendezvous group.

She is somebody who has been a senior business professional, who has worked in brand management and event management and so on in the past, and was asked to help with the consortium. And as far as I am concerned, I am not a part of this business arrangement and its sweat equity over the years of the franchise. And if the franchise succeeds, and currently you know that there is no money that anybody is making in the new team they are going to have to function, they will incur losses for many years and at some point in the indefinite future, there might be profits to be gained, that might be the arrangement.

Now I can't speak for Rendezvous, they have to judge who they want and for what purposes, but I had a pretty good idea why they wanted her and what role they wanted her to play. My involvement has nothing whatsoever to do with her.

BD: In the sense...

ST: I was approached by one of the guys, brothers who were putting together this consortium. As far as I am concerned, if anybody else had approached me, another business consortium approached me, I would have gone with them.

In fact, I think it can be revealed that there was an earlier consortium differently constituted with only some elements of this consortium that made a bid in the first unsuccessful bidding round. Sunanda Pushkar was not a part of that, it was a different group that was involved, and as far as I am aware, if a third team had come to me and said would you help us, my only message was this, think of Kerala.

My whole argument was Kerala has certain advantages and I would hope that a business person would be interested in it and I as a representative of Kerala would like to see cricket come to life in Kerala. It's a place where the growth potential is enormous, it's a place where there is hunger for this sort of activity, there is a diaspora particularly in the Middle East which would love to follow a Kerala team, and these are all the advantages that the Kerala team would have, and these are the arguments I have made. Some were persuaded, some were not persuaded.

If you see what I am saying, as far as this particular outfit is concerned, they were persuaded even though most of the promoters are not even from Kerala, and I am very pleased that they were. And as far as I am concerned, I neither was in a position to guarantee any outcome nor was I in a position therefore to demand anything in return for it.

Naturally, I did not, as a minister I would not. I even write articles very occasionally because time doesn't permit, I don't take any fee for it. The rule is very clear: drawing a salary as a minister in the government of India, you don't have other sources of income, so the question would not even have occurred to me.

BD: Hence the charge that Sunanda Pushkar is the front face of Shashi Tharoor, of course you can't accept the equity yourself because this is a visible and public relationship of whichever kind...

ST: That means I am really dumb, Barkha, because if I really wanted to do something corrupt I would have done it in public in a relaxed way. I mean, for god's sake, it's precisely because there is nothing to hide. I have not hidden anything.

The entire point is that if I wanted to do something corrupt, it would have never occured to me because I have never been corrupt in my life, so I don't think that way. But if I was to do it, then I would have asked some other personal friend or whatever to come over with me.

It's really insulting how our media can't accept the notion of an attractive woman being a capable professional in her own right.

BD: You are saying this is about sexism?

ST: Yes, it is, absolutely it is. It’s very insulting that she must be there as a proxy for me as if she has no capabilities of her own. To be honest, she has had a business career and has built up business assets and all that on her own, and far in excess of anything that I can bring to the table. I wouldn’t even presume that she would need to act as a proxy for me. It’s ridiculous.

BD: That’s the point she made in her own statement today, that look, I am not a proxy, I am a businesswoman in my own right. The countercharge to that by the BJP and the left is that we didn’t even know of a person called Sunanda Pushkar till a few months ago. We only know her because she is a friend of Shashi Tharoor. If she is such a well-known businesswoman and belongs to the world of cricket business management, how come we didn’t know of her earlier?

ST: Well, I don’t think she belongs to the world of cricket. I don’t think she’s particularly interested in cricket; for that matter, sports. But she has done a great deal of event management and brand management and I believe that she was approached by another IPL team earlier at a time when it was less convenient for her.

BD: You mean KKR [Kolkata Knight Riders]?

ST: Yes, one particular promoter in KKR had a conversation with her and I believe that he has confirmed in a statement that he has issued this evening. So the fact is that I don’t want to speak for Sunanda either and as far as I am concerned, her personal life is her own and that has been publicly confirmed and that’s fine.

I do think it’s a bit insulting that people simply look at the fact that I know her and assume that there is some egregious link. If I wanted to be devious and corrupt I would hardly be doing it with someone I am close to — obviously only recently — but I am close to.

BD: Let me put it to you in a different way. Let’s take your point and say, look, she has become a part of the consortium as a businesswoman in her own right, but you are close to her as you said, but as a politician, do you understand or did you understand that this relationship would automatically be put under a different kind of scrutiny?

ST: No, I didn’t understand that. I assumed that these things were completely unrelated, they were unrelated in my conscience and my conduct. I did not know that some in our media have chosen to think that they are related.

I also suspect that there has been a certain amount of very malicious spinning going on by certain motivated people and there is something underhand....  Frankly, because I am new to this world, I don’t understand how to do things in an underhand way. I have come from a life in which everything has been open and straightforward and I have conducted myself that way. If today you are telling me you shouldn’t have done that, you should be involved in some....

BD: No, I am just asking if you were aware of the implications of this. Once you are in politics, everything is in the public gaze and therefore you are held by different standards than if you were a private person....

ST: I am discovering new things that I don’t know about being in the public gaze and this is something I can assure you has not been pleasant over the last few days.

BD: I can imagine. Let’s go to one of the questions that Lalit Modi raised and accused you of: he said you made a phone call to him…

ST: I did.

BD: And he says that in that phone call you said please do not disclose the details of who owns the consortium.

ST: Yes, that is what is false. You see, what happened is a long and boring story, I am afraid.

BD: Tell us, we have time.