Congress needs to admit that they are organisationally weak, says VBA chief Prakash Ambedkar

If there was a political entity that last emerged and made a mark in Maharashtra during the Lok Sabha polls, it was the Vanchit Bahujan Aghadi (VBA) led by Prakash Ambedkar, the grandson of Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar.

The VBA, which allied with the All India Majlis-E-Ittehadul Muslimeen (AIMIM), is blamed for the defeat of the opposition Congress and NCP in seven seats, while the AIMIM's Imtiaz Jaleel won from Aurangabad.

With the battle-lines being drawn for the Maharashtra assembly polls, Ambedkar, a former Lok Sabha MP, and this week's Newsmaker, had a free-wheeling conversation with the DNA team on a range of issues including the eroding strength of the Congress, the failures of the Narendra Modi government and the economic downturn.

What is your take on the Lok Sabha results?

In 2017, many people, including myself had proposed that the Congress must take a back-seat and allow others to lead, but Congress did not agree to this. They did not create a national-level alliance versus the RSS and BJP at the state and national level. In the last five years, the actions of the government had an impact on the economy and the unorganised sector, which also covers farm labour. The results were surprising for us. None in the RSS and the BJP expected over 180 seats. It is high time that the three intelligence agencies in the political field, namely, the IB, CBI and LCB (local crime branch), publish their reports and assessments. None of them had predicted over 240 seats. There is something else here.

Considering the way in which things are going, we will not be ruled by any foreigners, there will be no physical colonisation as those days are over. (It will be like) Pakistan, which cannot decide on any issue except its relations with India. The rest is decided by the international community. Hackers were used (to manipulate the results). Some hackers have confided that if the courts are ready and willing to co-operate, then they are ready to demonstrate how hacking happens. We have filed 31 election petitions before different courts. We hope to get the opportunity to prove this.

Do you still stand by your proposal to the Congress?

Between 2012-14 (when the Congress-led UPA was in power), some financial miscalculations were reported. The CAG projected figures of a loot. There was an international oil crisis. The common man was affected. If corruption is an issue for the younger generation, non-corrupt leaders must take on the government. The economic stability of a nation is a different matter than the economic stability of a family. The present government is attacking the economic stability of a family. When deprived of employment, the common man dips into his savings. The largest savings are in the form of gold. He melts gold to run his family. That is a dangerous part with this government.

The national economy is already hit. You have socio-economic stability because the family is stable. In different parts of the world, when the economy crashes, there are people on the streets, because their family stability is linked to the national economic stability. In India, the situation is different. If there is a national economic crisis, the family crisis does not arise. The family is stable as he has reserves in some other form. But, the present government has hurt the stability of a family. We would have been in a better position to analyse and place this before the people than the Congress party.

What do you have to say about the Congress-NCP alliance?

Politics of the alliance is in the hands of the present government. My statements may sound vague. The present government decides whether the Congress and NCP are going to align or be separate. They have brought in everybody under the banner of inquiry. Ten days back I had passed on information to Raj Thackeray to be prepared for an inquiry. Those who will take on the government, will face an inquiry. Hence, my 2017 proposal was that, those who have an unblemished record should fight elections. Those who don't have an unblemished record will always be subjected to blackmail. And it is the politics of blackmail that the present government is indulging in.

What I tried in 2017 will not work in 2019 but it has to be projected before the people that politics of blackmail has taken over. If you are not sharing those seats that you lost in 2004,2009 and 2014 then the reasoning is very clear that someone has put a gun behind you. If you are going to share the seats then Tihar is open for you. I was not asking for winning seats and I was not asking for losing seats. Some Congressmen came to me. I told them let us fight on 144 seats each, come along and lets fight as an alliance.

Do you have any plans for an alliance with the Congress for State polls?

Congress may get 288 candidates but how many of them can win the election. Congress does not have candidates for all 288 seats. They do not have good candidates on over 80 seats. Even out of 80 candidates, 40 are serious while rest are contesting as formality on Congress tickets. The condition is same with NCP, Sena and BJP. Here, the BJP has one major advantage of having the RSS in its background. Sena does not have this. The same situation is with the Congress and the NCP. Earlier the Congress was much stronger because of its backbone of Congress Seva Dal. Today, the Congress Seva Dal has no existence. Therefore, Congress cannot claim that they will contest all seats. Congress need to admit that they are organisationally weak. If they really want to serious political party, they should strengthen its Seva Dal. So the target before Rahul Gandhi is not to leave the party, but strengthen its earlier Seva Dal roots. The backbone of his party has to be revived, established and expanded. Then only, they match with RSS and give tough fight to BJP in elections. The problem with Seva Dal is that its members are not allowed to contest the elections. Therefore, it become a defunct organisations without any ambition.

What will be your agenda for the state polls? Any comment on RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat statement on calling for discussions over special status?

If the special status given to one part of the country is taken away, then it will open a Pandora box for other states also. We have also given the special status to our seven sister states (North East). Home minister Amit Shah has clarified that the special status given to these seven sisters states will not be taken away. This statement has no meaning. In sense that Article 14 of Indian Constitution states 'equal before law and equality before the law'. These are basic principles. If you are going to say one part of the country will have special status and other will not, it violates Article 14 of the Constitution. The principle of equality has to be equally applied to all states. So what Mohan Bhagwat has said, it is effect of Article 370. You have reserved the certain rights and taken away the certain rights. The conclusion of Mohan Bhagwat statement is, whichever part of the country is given the special status or the reservations to society has to be taken or there will be turmoil in every section over withdrawal of special subsidies and status to every society. As a political leader, we are anticipating these things in coming days.

Why are you critical about NCP?

There are certain reports regarding the bomb blasts and other things. Are these planted? Are these parts of politics, or are these just to have a control over the political system?

Manmohan Singh should now speak on these issues and enlighten the nation on what happened in the past. I am referring to all bomb blasts.

Are you saying that Sharad Pawar's had a role to play in those blasts?

I am not referring to anyone or blaming anybody. I am only saying that the truth needs to come out. It's strange to suddenly hear about riots that took place before 1990's, and then all of a sudden there are bomb blasts. These are a way of creating divide between the Hindus and Muslims. I would appeal to Manmohan Singh that he speaks his mind on these issues. Even though his regime is projected as one of the most corrupt regimes, but I can vouch for him and say that we had one of the finest and a non-corrupt Prime Minister.

Do you hate NCP more than Congress?

I am not defending Congress. I am saying that within that corrupt system Manmohan Singh was the only person who was non-corrupt and who could manage the economy when the international crude prices were at $120 a barrel. Today the exchange rate is the same as it was during Manmohan Singh period.

So you say Manmohan Singh was better than Narendra Modi?

Of course. Manmohan Singh could manage the economy. He could keep the petrol and diesel prices within the reasonable limit of the common man. Today it has outshot the common man's range.

Do you demand political discussion and investigation into the bomb blasts?

The intelligence agencies should speak on the various political angles of these blasts.

I am talking about the all blasts. Whether there was a political angle in those blasts? Why did we not go after the Vohra Committee? It should probed and debated so that next generation is aware of what happens internationally and how things are managed. In abstract the religious forces are taking advantage of the situation.

So that would not impact your relationship with NCP?

If you see the Congress report, it says that NCP never transfers its votes. That is what our basic argument is. The NCP votes are more inclined towards BJP rather than towards secular forces. Therefore knowing this condition, why alliance with the partner you don't have a benefit with. It is a very clear proposition of ours.

They might call themselves secular but when it comes to the crux of the issue they are religious, and this was proved during the formation of government in Maharashtra. Shiv Sena was staying away from BJP. There were talks that since no government was being formed there will be re-election. That re election was stopped by whom? By NCP.

Congress leaders blame their defeat on the vote-split induced by the VBA.

If the one crore votes received by the Congress are analysed, around 80% are those of Muslims and 20% of Hindus. The Muslims shifted from the Congress to the VBA as they felt the VBA was getting Hindu votes, and with any addition of Muslim votes, they would defeat the BJP easily, than staying with the Congress.

A number of established and dominant communities like Marathas, Jats, Brahmins and even Gurjars have started seeking reservations as against their previous opposition to it.

Reservation basically came around Simon Commission for those who were not part of any ruling front or were kept out. To ensure their participation the reservation was introduced. Why were they kept out? On the basis of caste.

Now the other question is, why are the caste that were considered forward or even rulers are seeking reservation now. That is because the kind of policy that was needed in this country to accommodate everybody, is not there.

Nobody is coming forward and saying that give us power and in next five years we will create a situation where choice of education will be our foremost agenda. The moment you have choice of education, people will not come in for reservation. So it is failure of every government for not coming up with ideas or meeting the aspiration of the new generation.

You had in the past called for political reservations, to be reconsidered.

I stand by it. Political reservations were there for only 10 years. Reservations in jobs and education shall be a permanent, basic feature. The political reservations would include those who are not being accepted in society. Article 15 and 16, which deal with reservations, are permanent features of the Constitution and deal with women and socially backward class of society.

The concept of being socially backward from the 1950's may not exist in 2015. It will have to be re-looked. Some will have to be excluded and some will have to be included. But the principle of protection is enshrined in these two Articles, which will remain as long as the Constitution exists. The beneficiaries may change over a period, depending on the parameters being considered to establish progression.

What do you have to say on waning power of Ambedkarite parties in Maharashtra

The population of scheduled castes is high in North India as compared to the South. Ideologically you will find the Southern states much progressive than the Northern states. Hence, one will always be a political power and other will be an ideological power. We may have failed politically but as far as moulding a society and moulding an opinion goes, the Republican ideology is gaining ground. People are becoming more reformative, acceptable and the old dogmas are withering away. For the first time Vanchit Bahujan Aghadi (VBA) is trying to do it and hence you will see that we have crossed 40 lakhs of votes.

The ultimate aim of any progressive movement should be annihilation of caste, but it seems to be a far cry. Why?

The annihilation of caste is not going to take place overnight. The physical destruction of caste will always depend on economic progress and availability of accommodation at the early stage of student in the education and economic system. Once he has been accommodated with these, he has nothing to fall back on. Once he feels neglect, then to come out of this negligence, he falls back on caste. After the post-Cold War collapse of the USSR, there was a vacuum at the international level, and two words, ethnic and aboriginal, and these concepts came to the fore. Caste become a weapon for protection in this country.

What are your views on reform in personal laws, triple talaq legislation and uniform civil code?

Article 25 and 26 gives you religious freedom and protection. Even if we have a common civil code, I am unsure whether Muslims will be covered by the code. Now same is for rights of the women. In the Mohammedan Law, the legislation are based on Sharia Law. I think this government lost an opportunity by not referring the Triple Talaq Bill to the Standing Committee. That was also the demand of the Muslim community. There many things could have unfolded as per the Sharia, and all personal law aspects would have been covered. Had that been the case, it would have been a more progressive law than what we have today. Do not go by the concept that Muslim law is rhetoric. If studied, you will know that whatever changes that have come into Hindu laws, half of them or 90% of it has been copied from Muslim law.

In a bid to woo Dalit voters, BJP-Sena government has decided to increase the height of the Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar statue's at Indu Mills to 450 feet.

I am against that statue. In a discussion with Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the then prime minister, I told him that one of the reasons why India fails internationally is that it does not have an 'alternative school of thought'. It only has an 'official school of thought. You need an international school, wherein, you have all different views and then you can decide and take a stand which is common to all.

Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) is one centre where the present government is in controversy as it does not want a school of thought. I think institutional politics is more important than statue politics. The statue plan was meant to hinder the idea of an institution..

Your condition to Congress-NCP was that they have plan to regulate RSS. Will you have that in your manifesto? Are you seeking a ban?

Ban is not the answer. Bringing it within the Constitutional fold, bringing it within the organisational fold, bringing it into the legislation that are set up are important part of it. At present what is happening is that RSS (and other) says we are above the constitution, parliament and even above the prime minister. They have moulded themselves into Hitler's SS. Everybody is answerable to us, we are answerable to none.

Some political parties also have organisation that are not registered and unregulated. Therefore this debate goes on that you give us the background of how to go ahead because you are a lawyer. They have better lawyers than me. They have well known lawyers than me. All these organisations whose activities that run against the nation need to be brought under the fold immaterial of the religion.

Bhima Koregaon case
You take the case of Dabholkar, Pansare or Kalburgi. You see that Sanatan is involved in it. During Congress regime and even during the present government regime there were no efforts taken to investigate. This government believes that there will no punishment to our cadre and they think they are above law.
A few things were revealed after the court questioned the involvement of certain people. Otherwise everything was under the carpet.
The prosecution of the accused in Bhima Koregaon case will not take place unless there is a change of government. Also, there were posts on being circulated that the guardian minister of Pune, Girish Bapat and chief minister be murdered. The names are all on record, but not even a Non-Cognizable (NC) is registered against Shiv Pratishthan. This is the character of the present government. They are moulding themselves on the RSS line, that our cadre won't be answerable to the instruments of the government