Small films are my oxygen: Anurag Kashyap on 'Ugly'

Filmmaker Anurag Kashyap is no stranger to pushing boundaries. So it may not have surprised many when he chose to delay the release of Ugly by more than a year to protest the imposition of the 'smoking is injurious to health' disclaimer in the film, taking his fight till the Bombay High Court before finally backing down. Ugly is produced by DAR Motion Pictures and Phantom, a production company owned by Kashyap along with his associates Vikramaditya Motwane, Madhu Mantena and Vikas Bahl. Among the graffiti-like paintings and writings on a wall of his Phantom office, is the Gone With the Wind quote, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" in bold letters. And that perhaps best describes how Kashyap works - adamant about doing what he wants and doing it his way, without a care about being typecast as a certain kind of director. In a candid interview with Meryl Sebastian​, Anurag Kashyap talks about his upcoming films Ugly and Bombay Velvet and why he calls himself the most free filmmaker in the country.

You've called Ugly your best film so far. Why do you feel that? Have you achieved something with this film that you haven't before?

I think the film has come together very well. The writing, the performances, the way it's been put together, the sound design, everything. It's one of the rare films. Whenever I think people will react to a film of mine in a particular way, 50% of the time it does not turn out to be that way. This is the first time that 90% of the time, the audience reacted the way I expected. Everybody makes calls, wants to know the well being of their children, their family after watching the film. They're emotional about it and think about it for 2-3 days. 

So it's been a more impactful film.

It's definitely more impactful. And not just that, people who've seen it have called it my best and most accessible work.

For Ugly, you drew from your first marriage and your relationship with your daughter..

The genesis of the film started there. My guilt that I didn't spend enough time with my daughter and my own battle with alcohol. But it slowly transformed into something else. It became another film when I met my friend Amit Pathak, the head of STF in Lucknow. He narrated real life kidnapping cases, how they were tackled, things that happen, and told me the whole logic of how it functions. Slowly, the film transformed and he helped me a lot with it.

Is it true that you didn't show the script to anybody because of worries that they would not want to be involved to make the film? How did you get people on board for the film?

I work a lot on trust and believe that you can't demand trust. You have to earn it. Over a period of time with my body of work, I have earned that trust. I worked with Vineet (Kumar Singh) and Tejaswini (Kolhapure). The new actors were Rahul (Bhat) and Girish Kulkarni. When you talk to them and they have seen your work, they trust you. I tell them, "Trust me with this. I don't want to tell you the script and there is reason for it." They give me that trust and only then it can happen. And in this film, surprisingly everyone gave me that trust. I got that trust from the entire cast and crew. I did not have to share the script. So for all of them it was a game, "What are we doing today? Where does this scene come?" I wouldn't tell them anything.

So at what point was the script revealed to them? 

They only found out when they saw the movie at the Cannes Film Festival (2013).

So nobody knew anything even while it was being shot! How did you audition the actors? 

We worked closely with them and there were minor auditions. Me and Mukesh (Chhabra, casting director) do this a lot. It is a long process and I also need to know the actor. I spend time with them. I talk a lot with my actors. I don't do the film immediately. Ugly happened at the end of 2012 but I had started writing it in 2006. I told Rahul Bhatt and everybody that I want to make this in 2010. So we spent two years, talking to each other and getting to know each other.

Can you talk about your principle objection to placing a no-smoking sign in your film?

While I understand the Health Ministry saying that smoking is a very big problem in society, it can't be made my responsibility without them doing their part. I'm saying, ban the tobacco companies. Smoking is not illegal in this country. Drinking is not illegal. If you want to go after those two things, you have to make for better control. When you go abroad, they have such incredibly effective control measures over smoking, without resorting to silly methods like putting a disclaimer in films. It destroys not just the fun of the movie but also the engagement (of the audience) with the film. It makes me disrespect the government's initiative. It makes me want to smoke in anger. There are better ways of controlling smoking effectively. It's been done world over. Change the law and order situation. I refuse to take on the responsibility which is theirs. I take my cinema very seriously.

Both Ugly and Bombay Velvet's release dates have been postponed several times. What is the reason for that? 

Yeh to mera pehle se chal raha hai (laughs). Bombay Velvet has been postponed because it's not finished yet. We are still to start with sound design and the special effects are yet to be completed. Ugly was postponed because of the court case. Then when we tried to release it, we realised we needed a better strategy than just spending a lot more money to release the film. My questions was, why spend more money on releasing the film than you spent on making it. So we decided against doing that and simply release it on December 26.

There were reports of parts of Bombay Velvet being reshot. Is that true?

No, Bombay Velvet has not been reshot at all. We finished shooting in April. People have being trying to figure out the reason for the delay. We live in an industry where we don't place so much emphasis on post-production. But I do. All my films have taken a minimum of 8 months in post-production and that takes time. So people are saying the film has been delayed for this reason or the other, but none of it is true. The film is finished. Our trailer is ready. Rumours can go on. It's better to have rumours that the film has problems than rumours that the film is very good.

To belie expectations?

Yeah and surprise all of them!

With Bombay Velvet, you're going back to the 60s jazz era in Bombay. Can you tell us more about the film?

It's a love story set against the transformation of the city and several crimes on which the city is built on. The film begins very early, but that's only the prologue of the film. Most of the film is set in 1969-70.

Why did you choose Karan Johar as the antagonist?

You won't ask that question when you see the film. It's like how people asked me about Tigmanshu Dhulia​ in Gangs of Wasseypur. But after seeing the film, nobody asked me that.

Was Karan the first choice?

No, he was not always on my mind. It came across in a conversation with him, when I suddenly realised that the guy I'm talking to, narrating the story to, is actually the best person for it. So then and there I pitched it to him.

For Bombay Velvet you have two editors, Thelma Schoonmaker and Prerna Saigal.

We have two editors working on the same edit. There is going to be only version. We started with Prerna. Thelma saw the film, loved it and she had some ideas. She has never worked or edited anything outside of a (Martin) Scorsese film. If she chooses to come on board, imagine how a big an honour it is. It will only make the film better. And it was the best way for me and Prerna to learn from her. 

With every successive film your canvas has gotten bigger - you have wider platforms, bigger releases. Do you feel you are moving further mainstream?

I want to take my movies mainstream. I don't want to make what I don't want to make.

So you are happy with however big it gets?

Not how bigger it gets, but how wider it reaches. That should be the natural growth. Look at the filmmakers we admire. Look at the growth. They started with a small film that was rarely seen to a film that got a following and then becoming a 'cult film'. It happens slowly. A (Christopher) Nolan is not changing his filmmaking style. He makes films like Inception and Interstellar after Following and Memento. His filmmaking has not changed. His budgets have changed. With increasing budgets, his vision has become grander. He remains the same filmmaker.

Are there any drawbacks?

There are absolutely no drawbacks. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to make Bombay Velvet.

So what happens when you are portrayed as being the 'poster boy of indie cinema'.

People gave me that term. I didn't apply to be the poster boy. This country doesn't function if they don't know how to categorise someone. I have love for indie cinema and have supported it. So people called me the poster boy. But when I told them that I'm not a charity, I can't support everything that calls itself 'indie', they started resenting me. From poster boy, I became a dartboard for them. But it's their problem, no? Whether they call me a poster boy or a sellout, it's their problem. I know what I'm doing and I'm doing exactly what I wanted to do. 

How would you describe your style of filmmaking?

I don't want to describe it. I would rather be a filmmaker that people can't describe and that's the best I can be. I don't want to figure out how to describe myself.

You don't want to put yourself in a box.

No. I can say that I'm the most free filmmaker in the country. I can do what I want to do more than anybody else, regardless of the success that I have had vis-à-vis others.

Is this where you want to be or would you go back to making smaller films as well?

I will never stop making small films. That's the reason I made Ugly after making Gangs of Wasseypur. It's one-fourth of the budget. Small films are my oxygen. 

You have reached a place where it's become a lot more easy for you to make films.

It is easier. It better be easier after 21 years of struggling in this industry! (laughs). I've said no to a lot of things in my life. I have paid my dues, personally and professionally. It better be easier now.

How do you think you have evolved as a filmmaker through your journey in the industry?

I was fearless earlier. Then after No Smoking, I became slightly scared. But now I think I'm moving towards being fearless again. Change is the only constant. There is so much I want to do. Today, I envy these young filmmakers. I envy Chaitanya Tamhane (director of Court), Kanu Behl (director of Titli), Avinash Arun (director of Killa) who makes these small movies. I envy how they think like that, how they make their characters become like that. I envy Dibakar Banerjee. I envy all good filmmakers. That envy is what keeps me going. I envy the younger lot more than anybody.

What do you think you have learnt from watching their films?

I just watched the film by Zeishan Quadri, writer of Gangs of Wasseypur, who I had dismissed saying 'You are in too much of a hurry', but who goes and makes a wonderful film. I take pride in taking long shots, but I see he is more planned and thinks through things more. He is less lethargic as compared to me and that's something for me to learn.

What are the films you keep going back to?

I recently saw Straw Dogs which was unbelievable in the way they shot the seduction-rape sequence. I also saw Red Shoes. It's always good to revisit films that inspired you in the first place.

Do you go back to your own films?

I never see my films after its release. 

Do you think about them? About things you could have done differently?

I do think about them sometimes, but I only see problems in my films. With every film you think you could have done better. There is not a single film I've made that I've thought I could not have done it better.

As a producer, how do you choose what films to back?

It's instinctive. It depends on taste. I become friends with people if I like their work. So I seek their friendship because I feel it might rub off some talent on me. All my friends are mostly on the basis of their work and their passion for it. Once I like their work, I'll do anything for them. I don't do things based on money or because someone tells me to. I only do things because I believe in them. Whatever comes out of that is automatic, it's natural, it's organic.

Do you like being a producer?

I hate being a producer (laughs). But now I have other people to do the producer job. I need to spend time with myself. I just endorse movies if I like them.