NDA has put fear of God in social movements: Jairam Ramesh

What prompted you to delve into this subject?
When I was environment minister, I became aware of what Indira Gandhi had done for environmental issues and that was always in my mind. Whether it was forest conservation, wildlife protection, water pollution and air pollution control, whether it was establishment of Central Pollution Control Board or the environment ministry itself. This is the centenary year of her birth, so it was a good occasion to recall and reflect on her life. There have been many biographies of Indira Gandhi. However, all of them have focussed on her as a political leader. They have talked about Bangladesh, Emergency, the split in the Congress party...but nobody has focussed on her as an individual. She thought of herself as a child of nature. That is why I thought, I should write an offbeat biography.

What is quite evident from the book is, much of Indira Gandhi’s knowledge of grassroots environmental issues came from a select group of people
She depended on a few selected friends; Salim Ali, Billy Arjan Singh, Duleep Mathai, she depended on her officials. You are right, she had a wide circle of friends but a tight circle. Many of them were even foreigners, such as Peter Jackson. Mostly, she depended on Salim Ali, if there is one figure who influenced her the most, it was Salim Ali. But, that influence would not have had an effect had she not been personally committed.

Do you think that the kind of communication she had with this close circle is missing today, including when you were environment minister
Channels of communication today are entirely different. There were no environmental NGOs, hardly any NGOs. What Mrs.Gandhi did was to bring environmental issues into the political arena. After Chipko movement, the next big environmental movement was the Silent Valley movement. In Tehri movement, she responded to a lot of people from the movement, such as Sunderlal Bahuguna, who played a very important role. As long as she was alive, the Tehri project did not get the green signal, it got the green signal only in 1987.

In the context of these issues, issues such as Ken-Betwa river linking or Uttarakhand dams issue, are going ahead despite opposition, how do you see that?
Mrs.Gandhi was the first and last Prime Minister, whose heard and heart was committed to the environment, I have no hesitation in saying this. She would have been horrified about Ken-Betwa project. By the way, I can tell you reliably that even the Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister does not want the Ken-Betwa link. But, it is being pushed on him.

Why do you say so?
Uma Bharti and the Prime Minister. And the Supreme Court has played a particularly puzzling role in the river-linking project. Generally, the Supreme Court has made progressive interventions on environment. But on river linking, in my view, they have played a very strange role. On Uttarakhand too, particularly about the dams on Bhagirathi. Indira Gandhi took a clear stand on Silent Valley and even Lalpur dam.

But she also oversaw a period of industrialization
I would say, she took some questionable decisions. Locating the petroleum refinery in Mathura, 60kms from the Taj Mahal, and 60kms from Bharatpur, were questionable. Another example I can think of his Kudremukh, in 1975 she signed an agreement with the Shah of Iran, because she was building a political relationship, she wanted oil. From the Western Ghats point of view, Kudremukh project should have never started. On forests, she was tough, on wildlife, she was tough, but on pollution, she was wavering. She believed, like all good leftists, and even all rightists, that pollution is a price you pay for industrialisation. It took her less than years to bring forest conservation act, but it took her six years to bring the water pollution and air pollution act.

Is that also why Ganga suffered during her rule?
Just before she passed away she started this exercise to clean the Ganga. The first major national project, announced by Rajiv Gandhi in his first broadcast to the nation, on January 5, 1985, was the Ganga cleaning project. What he did not mention was that Indira Gandhi had started this exercise.

But the situation had come to a pass where such a project had to be launched
As I told you, the Water Pollution Control Act came only in 1974. The tough law, the Environment Protection Act, came only in 1986, after Bhopal (accident).

Do you see the current dispensation being cynical or indifferent to environmental social movements?
All social movements are suspect in the last three years, the fear of God has been put into them. All the activists who used to shout when I was environment minister are sitting silently today. They have no voice, frankly. Today the voice of civil society has been completely shut off. I have had people coming to my house from Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, which is an RSS outfit, asking me to intervene, saying that they are not able to influence Mr.Modi on Forest Rights Act.

What does it say about our political system that the environmental legislations brought by Mrs.Gandhi still form the core of environmental protection regulations
Mr.Modi’s single point objective is to completely decentralise. Look at Mr.Modi’s track record in Gujarat, look at what Adani’s have done in Mundra, look at the way mangroves have been destroyed, look at Vapi and Ankleshwar, he has done nothing. The general philosophy of Niti Aayog, of Mr.Jaitley, of the Prime Minister, is environmental regulation ko thoda kam karo, jo kuch karna hai state government ko dedo, jaha kuch honewala nahi hai.

How do you view the future of the Paris deal, especially after US pulled out of it?
President Bush took America out of Kyoto and President Trump pulled out of the Paris deal. It will take four years for America to formally get out of the Paris deal by which time Mr.Trump may be part of history. But, the fact is, it is a blow, no doubt. The US is the second largest polluter in the world and US not being part of an international agreement is a bad signal, to stop the funding. What positions they will take in the negotiations, one does not know. India should not link any of its actions to what America does. It should not link its actions to what technology or money we will get. We must do things because it is in our interest, we are the most vulnerable to climate change. We are facing retreat of glaciers, monsoon uncertainties, deforestation problems, how many countries have a 7500km coastline. We are most vulnerable in the world to climate change. We have to speak from a position of strength. Is it only at Copenhagen in 2009 that with great difficulty that I was able to articulate a different viewpoint and the BJP criticised me for it. Mr.Jaitley criticised me in Parliament. The stand that I took in Copenhagen and Cancun is the stand that Mr.Modi took in Paris. But Paris was derived from Copenhagen and Cancun.